Dr. Longley: I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you, and I'll be glad to answer questions that you have, and if I don't have the answer, I'll do my best to tell you where you can get the answers, and again, I appreciate the opportunity to do this.

Dr. Longley: I think the largest problem that we have in Texas, at least, is having enough in-stream flow. As our population grows in Texas, we continually take more and more water from our waterways, and as we take that water, many of the organisms in the waterways may not have sufficient water to complete their life cycles, or we may not have sufficient water to go to our estuaries, and these estuaries are the nurseries for many marine organisms. Without sufficient freshwater inflow, salinity will increase, and many of those marine organisms will not be able to complete their life cycles. This area supports a tremendous commercial and sport fishery and food industry, fish and shellfish industry, and I think that's a major problem in Texas at this point. It's really water quantity, and as we decrease the amount of water in our streams, this leaves less for dilution of point discharges and non-point contamination that comes in all along our rivers.

Dr. Longley: Well, in many areas there are local groups. In San Marcos, we have the San Marcos River Foundation, and in Texas, there are many Texas watch groups that monitor water quality along the rivers. Sometimes these are sponsored by cities or river authorities and sometimes schools that are interested in water quality, and that's an excellent way to become involved. One other thing, here in San Marcos, they have an annual what they call "trasher" hunt, where divers and people in canoes go down our river and get all of the trash that they can find in the river out, and the city furnishes trucks to haul it off.

Dr. Longley: Well, in surface waters, it is probably organic matter. In urban areas I would suspect it is runoff from construction areas, could be sediment, could be runoff from streets. Also, we have many pets that are loose in the city, and they produce fecal material. That fecal matter gets into the storm drains, and is washed to the streams, and it's amazing how much that does matter in terms of organic loading in our streams.

Dr. Longley: I'd like to mention groundwater, probably one of our worst situations. For many years we had underground storage tanks for gasoline at many gas stations, and those storage tanks for the gasoline, many of them were metal, they had metal pipes going to them, and through the years--many of them were in the ground for thirty or more years--and many of them would begin to leak. That would leak the organic matter in the gasoline, and that would get into the groundwater. Not only that, we had other places like dry cleaners that stored their solvents in underground storage tanks, and these were very noxious materials that you would not want in your groundwater. Unfortunately, for example here in San Marcos, we have an area near the river that is being listed as a Superfund site, that probably has resulted from some dry cleaning tank of a cleaner's that has long been shut down but is now showing up those solvents in springs that are running into a small creek that runs into our river here.

Dr. Longley: As I understand it, this particular algae is normally associated with our coast, and if I remember correctly, Possum Kingdom is much saltier water than some other areas. And because it is more saline, or salty, than other freshwaters, I think it has allowed this algae to bloom. Another area that this has occurred is in the Pecos River in West Texas, and the Pecos River is known to be salty, it runs across some natural salt deposits, and picks that salt up. And as a result, the algae are able to live, and grow rapidly in those areas, both Pecos and Possum Kingdom. Possum Kingdom, if I remember correctly, is in the Brazos River basin, which is in the upper end, and has some natural salt springs and salt deposits, again that contribute salt to the river system.

Dr. Longley: You know, I don't know the exact number. I do know the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission, or TNRCC, does either an annual or every three-year inventory of water quality in Texas streams. And one could determine the answer to that question by going to their website, which you could find through the Texas government website.

Dr. Longley: For the Edwards Aquifer, probably the primary issue is the potential for over-pumping or mining the groundwater resource that is known as the Edwards Aquifer. The reason this is a problem is this aquifer is the source of several major springs, including Comal Springs in New Braunfels, and San Marcos springs in San Marcos. If too much pumping occurs during dry periods, it is possible that the aquifer levels will be lowered below the openings of the springs, and that would result in the springflow stopping. This would potentially cause the loss of endangered species, such as the Fountain Darter, a small fish, the Texas Wild Rice, a grassy plant that produces a wild rice kernel, and other species like the San Marcos Salamander, and a number of invertebrates that are known to be limited to those springs. An additional problem that could occur from over-pumping the aquifer is to allow the encroachment or movement of saline water into freshwater areas of the aquifer, therefore destroying its use as a drinking water supply.

Dr. Longley: I think there is a Bolson Aquifer in the El Paso region, and they call it the Hueco Bolson. I think Bolson refers to surface topography, I think it's a dry, flat type of area in the deserty area out around El Paso. But there is an aquifer associated with the Hueco Bolson, that as I understand it, is being used by the city of El Paso and Juarez water supply, and this is in addition to Rio Grande water that the surface supplies. One interesting thing that is occurring out there is that wastewater is being treated to a high degree and then is being reinjected back into the Hueco Bolson. As I understand it, approximately seventeen miles from where the city pumps water for their water supply, so it allows a reuse, in fact.

Dr. Longley: Well, as man has gathered together in urban areas, concentrated our population, we have also concentrated our waste, and waste must be treated, or they will degrade the water quality. In times past, more so, we have not always adequately treated our waste, and this is not just the waste that is collected and shipped to the wastewater treatment plant, but also our storm water waste, and so forth, that I mentioned earlier. Before man concentrated in these larger urban areas, streams were able to take care of the smaller concentrations of waste from the natural populations, including man, that were concentrated in any one area. So I think that's what most of our poor water quality comes from. And of course, as we have concentrated, we have also gone into an industrial society, where we make a lot of synthetic materials that are not easily broken down in nature, and that can also be a problem sometimes.

Dr. Longley: I don't believe pollution ever brings about new species. In terms of new species, I guess it depends on how you are defining new species. When I think of new species, I think of new genetically different species. As rivers are cleaned up, the kinds of organisms that live in the aquatic communities change. As there are certain kinds of organisms that indicate clean water. Examples would be, in a clean water system, you might have many mayflies, caddis flies, in a colder area, stone flies. In a very polluted environment, the community might only consist of things like rattail maggots, bloodworms--they are just a type of fly larvae. There are sludgeworms, they are related to earthworms, they are called tubificids, they are little miniature earthworm-like critters that can stand situations where there is no oxygen left. So as water goes from this often polluted situation where you would have the rattail maggots, the tubificids, and the fly larvae. If it is cleaned up, you will change to the more clean water type organisms. As I mentioned the mayflies, caddis flies, stone flies.

Dr. Longley: I don't think anyone really knows. There are many streams, even in our state of Texas that we don't have an adequate knowledge of all the species that occur there. There simply has not been enough taxonomic work to know what is there.

Dr. Longley: Well, it's amazing. Sometimes in very short order. Many of the aquatic species are distributed by flying adult, so if the water is clean, let's say, if you could go in and overnight clean up the water, cut off the source of pollution, within a few weeks, you could have a cleaner community of organisms, or a community of clean water type organisms.

Dr. Longley: I am not aware of that day, so I'm assuming that has to do with Parks and Wildlife, or TNRCC.

Dr. Longley: Well, I am actually not familiar with a lot of the Texas watch groups individually. I would assume that since many of them are laypersons, that sometimes methods that they are using for analyzing for say, dissolved oxygen, or bacteria, they possibly would be a little more prone for making mistakes, but I honestly don't know. Now, on the biodiversity, oftentimes there are many organisms that are unfamiliar to them, and the premise of those biodiversity indices for determining water quality is that you are able to identify the different water organisms, and it would be dependent on how well they have trained themselves to identify organisms.

Dr. Longley: Well, I've always been interested in water. I grew up on a ranch in Central Texas, and we had springs, and streams on our ranch, and I always enjoyed going and looking at the little organisms in the water. For a period of time I lived in West Texas, where water was very limited, and we would visit Fort Stockton, Texas, where there was a large beautiful spring called Comanche Springs, and we used to go swimming there, that was a great treat for me. I guess my interest means that water has always been very precious, and I've always enjoyed being in it and around it. I like fishing, boating. When I was in public school, I enjoyed biology, I enjoyed chemistry, and those are very basic sciences for aquatic biology.

Dr. Longley: For my bachelor's degree I got a degree in biology, with a minor in chemistry. For my master's degree, I got a degree in zoology and entomology, with a minor in what was called sanitary biology, and for my Ph.D., my doctorate, I got a degree in environmental biology. The coursework that I kind of was concentrated in was, of course, biology and chemistry, and on the graduate level, I took in addition to biology and chemistry, courses in environmental engineering, and I took some microbiology, and biochemistry in med school, but that is not always necessary for a background.

Dr. Longley: Well, much of my research has been concentrated on describing the community of organisms living in the Edwards Aquifer. And I have discovered many of these, and described them, and I have published papers describing the community of organisms. These organisms have been very fascinating, and have included the Texas Blind Salamander, that lives in the aquifer in the Hayes County area, two species of blind catfish that live between 1350 and 2000 feet beneath San Antonio, Texas, and then some approximately 40 invertebrate species that live in the aquifer. I think the description of the community has probably been my greatest achievement.

Dr. Longley: Well, actually, most of these organisms that come from the aquifer are unusual in that they are eyeless and colorless, probably though the most unusual is what is referred to as the common name the Toothless Blind Cat, and actually, I wasn't the original discoverer. But before I studied these fish, from approximately thirty specimens, there had only been a couple of specimens described previously. It is a catfish that has a sucker-like mouth, but no teeth. It also has great adaptations for living in the dark, with many specialized sensory structures located over its body. I think that's been the most fascinating thing that I've been involved studying.

Dr. Longley: Well, sometimes smells can be your first indication. Sick rivers are often smelly, either from too much algae, or from having gone anaerobic, that is, lost all the oxygen. Fortunately, we don't have too many of those situations down in Texas. If it had been that situation, you won't catch any fish, because the fish can't live where the oxygen goes to zero. Clean rivers will typically have a lot of aquatic life in them; you will see a lot of aquatic insects and larval forms, and small fish living in the near shore environment.

Dr. Longley: I think that's one approach that particularly untrained individuals could use, and I think most people can recognize things as being different, and that would give you an idea of biodiversity.

Dr. Longley: In our aquatic program here, we have had no problem having our graduates get jobs, at even the bachelor degree level, because it seems there are a lot of water quality jobs with either state or federal governments, river authorities, consulting firms. There appears to be still a very good open job market for this group of people, particularly if they have a background in biology and chemistry, not just biology, they need the chemistry also.

Dr. Longley: Well generally, the worst pollution is associated with the highest population areas, where you have large cities, and all large cities are associated with waterways. An example here in Texas is the Houston Ship Channel, Buffalo Bio Area; it used to be a natural waterway, the Buffalo Bio. And you have along these areas, typically, large concentrations of industries, and of course, the discharge from municipal wastewater plants, and those tend to be where there is the worst pollution, where you have such a high concentration of people. Amazingly, though, I recently took a class down to Houston, and there are fish in the ship channel these days, it is much better than it was, say, twenty years ago, because considerable efforts are being made to treat the waste so that fish and aquatic life can live in the ship channel area.

Dr. Longley: Well, it obviously would depend on where you are located. If you would think about what areas were like before man concentrated cities along streams, we probably have no idea what the assemblage of organisms in those communities was. In most areas associated with urban areas, there aren't a lot of aquatic species that are under threat of water pollution, mostly it is from having inadequate water supply. Right now I can't think specifically of any endangered species in aquatic environments associated with large urban areas. I do think of one thing. In Austin, Texas, there is Barton Springs and there is the Barton Springs salamander, and this is quite sensitive to changes in water quality, and it could be an example of something being endangered.

Dr. Longley: Typically anything that would cause all of the oxygen to be depleted from the stream is usually the worst, unless it is a toxic material that outright kills all the organisms. Those would be the kinds of problems that would be the worst.

Dr. Longley: Oh, it has been done, it's just that it is very expensive. The countries like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Israel, have extensive desalinization plants, but they also have lots of money to spend, and little other source of water. So yes, it can be done. In our country, probably the most efficient large scale plant that is being done is in Tampa, Florida, but still the cost is not considered to be at the level that you could simply substitute it for fresh water. You can produce very excellent quality water by using the technologies that are now available, those would include reverse osmosis, membrane filtration, and this is a special type of membrane filtration, high pressure, in some of the countries they actually freeze the salt water, and when salt water is frozen, the ice is the fresh water part, and so they harvest the ice. So it is possible technologically, it is just very expensive.

Dr. Longley: In most cases, no. The Edwards Aquifer water quality is excellent in most areas. There are a few areas that have been contaminated to some extent, but the amount of water in the aquifer tends to dilute that contamination to where at this time there is still excellent quality at most places in the aquifer. One concern though is this aquifer is in a limestone karstic region. This allows water to get to the water table without any filtration to speak of, through caves, faults, sinkholes in some areas, and as a result, if there is pollution on the surface, it can potentially get to the water in the aquifer very unattenuated, that is to say, there is no filtration in many cases. Therefore, in some areas of the Edwards Aquifer, the regulatory agencies will consider it as groundwater under the influence of surface water, and require surface water type treatments, which are more extensive than is typically done to the Edwards Aquifer water, like in San Antonio.

Dr. Longley: Well, I've gone to Alaska several times in recent years and what comes to mind is the Exxon Valdez, which spilled large quantities of oil into the coastal areas of Alaska. I do know when you visit the Alaska Aquarium, they have some information there, which indicates oil is still present in some of the beaches, and has affected the community of organisms that live in the beach sands, and so forth. Some of these organisms are food for fish, and shellfish, which are an important part of the marine ecosystem there. Over long periods of time, the oil will eventually be broken down by various kinds of bacteria, but it is a long term process.

Dr. Longley: I do know there are some programs in the liberal arts that do produce people that end up in that area. I personally feel that they need an adequate background in the sciences if they are going to be knowledgeable and effective as water monitors as a career. I don't think the liberal arts area will give you sufficient background in the sciences if it is strictly a liberal arts major.

Dr. Longley: Well, one, I think that there is not likely to be many more dams built on Texas rivers because of the tremendous costs associated with all of the environmental studies, and all the potential environmental damage that can be done from dams. I think what we will see are innovative ways of conjunctively using surface and groundwater more efficiently, doing more water conservation, reuse, and therefore, extending the water supplies that we have available now to a much greater extent.

Dr. Longley: In biodiversity monitoring, I think the use of simple kick nets, frame nets, hand screens, it can be like window screen between two broom handles, as long as the collecting is done in a way where, if you are making comparisons, you do it the same way in every place for the same amount of time, and make comparisons of the amount of organisms, the biodiversity. I think that's the type of monitoring you should use, basically inventorying the microinvertebrates living in the stream.

Dr. Longley: Yes, I am aware, particularly in many areas along the coast, and I think that's a great travesty, because many of those marshes are breeding grounds for marine life that come into that situation to lay their eggs, to rear their young, and if you don't have those places available, it is going to affect the overall populations of marine organisms in particular, and I think that is unfortunate.

Dr. Longley: Well, where possible, we should leave the marshes in their natural state. Because they are also locations where many birds live, what we would like to happen, and what actually happens, as development occurs, isn't always the same. But Texas in many places does not have a lot of land use regulations outside of cities, and so there is not a lot of control on private property about how it can be utilized in some cases, and that is one of the reasons I think that marshes get filled in and utilized for making developed areas along the coast.

Dr. Longley: Most of you probably know chlorine is a disinfectant that for many years has been used as the primary disinfectant of wastewater. And chlorine, if there is organic material available, which most wastes have, can form organochlorine compounds, or haloginated hydrocarbons. These compounds are known in many cases to be carcinogenic, or cancer causing, so that is a potential problem. Water is not used just one time. So the waste from one area that gets into the stream will become the drinking water for another area, and if you have those chlorinated compounds, they then have to be removed. Among other things, this increases the cost of treatment of the drinking water. But it can also kill aquatic organisms directly.

Dr. Longley: Well, in the case of the Edwards Aquifer, there are areas where the aquifer is at the surface almost, where springs occur. Some of the deepest areas of the aquifer are under Bexar County, under San Antonio area where it is 2000 feet to the top of the Edwards, and then, the Edwards formation that contains the aquifer maybe 400 to 500 feet thick, so you may be talking 2500 feet deep in some places.

Dr. Longley: I really appreciated having the opportunity to talk with you.I would encourage those of you interested in the aquatic area to pursue it, it is a very fulfilling profession, and I think you would enjoy working in the aquatic area.